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How should non-C&R guiding be regulated and managed?

  • Like commercial harvesting.

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  • Like recreational fishing.

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I will state up front that I have spent many years as a commercial fisherman, and many many more as an avid spot fisherman. So far I have only partially formed an opinion on this issue, but I think non-C&R guiding should fall under the rubric of commercial harvest. It seems to me that both the cause and the effect are the same: make an income by providing others with fish to eat. It seems absurd to me to apply recreational management policy to any form of commercial harvesting.

I have chosen to post this on the freshwater board because I think it will be read by more members here, and because this is an issue affecting both rivers and oceans.
 

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It makes no sense to classify it under commercial fishnig as it is the clients that are licnced, not the guide. The clients are the ones catching the fish and they are recreational fishing, the fact they pay a guide to take them out is besides the fact.

Now that said, I do think they should start finding a way to better manage the amount of guides on the water, and also if it was a perfect world find a way to get the illegal guides off the water. But this won't happen so instead they will just come to the conclusion it's better to shut the river down :-\
 

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I agree with ambler. Having the ablity to pick up limit after limit for a client who's intent is to limit out without thought of conservetion is a bad trend for any fishery. The guild no way or reason to limit the client because the client has the right to X# fish that the client would not have gotten if the guild didn't put the client into the fish. Some type of limiter like ambler's idea makes sense. A guilded boat with 4 people getting thier limit of Chinook over 30 trips in the summer is 240 fish... 30 trips for me and my buddy could never be more than 20 chinook.
Have fun, Jason
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Eimaj raises an interesting point, that it is the clients who are licensed. That is very similar to how some of commercial harvests used to be managed. In the past, some quotas were based on the total number of fishermen. Every crewman was allotted a quota, so the more people fishing, the more fish caught; incidentally, it also meant that there were a lot more jobs in the industry. It was determined that this management strategy was unsustainable, and now the quota is matched to the vessel license, not to the individual fishermen. Maybe introducing a similar quota system for guides would encourage greater conservation? If it were based on weight, perhaps more of the big fish would be released, and if based on a piece count, fewer fish would be killed?

This would also help combat another practice that I have frequently seen. I know guides who also have their clients fill the guide's limit. This is fish being caught that the clients are not licensed for. I realize there is a cap on this practice for chinook, steelhead, and ling cod, but most species are not so limited. Since guides are allowing clients to catch their quotas anyway, why not allot each legitimate guide a specific charter quota to manage as they see fit? What about a restriction based on openings and closures that protects beleaguered runs from retention?
 

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Guides take anglers out sportfishing, they adhere to the limits set by the agencies that manage the fisheries.
It may be true that these limits need adjusting from time to time, but in no way is that done by guides or their companies.

Think of all the hard work done by guides protecting fisheries, volunteer studies , attending conservation meetings and so on, I always see guides at volunteer functions for habitat work etc....

Having BC a viable place for travellig anglers to spende their angling dollar DEFINATELY improves the chances of Govt spending money to enhance and protect fish.

The problem with our fisheries is many, the very least of them is hard working tax paying guides and the service they provide. Many anglers would never experience the great fishing of BC without a guides help, it is a valuble service for anglers not skilled or not physically able to do it themselves.

In BC a huge amount of the guiding industry is based on catch and release, especially freshwater, and the trips we do seldom result in limits of fish, and most are not reliant on killing anything.

Let the agencies (or get involved yourself) and change the limits if you seek change, but somehow turning guiding into a commercial fishery is ridiculous.
As for the harvest style fishing on the Fraser, obviously this cannot continue, and I would love to see a regualtion change on that particular act.

I think any angler who feels they are not allies with fishing guides in this province are not at all in touch with what guides do for the resource and the service they provide. A more dissected voice is not what sportfisherman need at this time, quite the opposite actually. :2cents:
 

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Good post BR!

What the heck do u guys mean by guides not being licensed? freshwater guides pay 150-400 dollars a yr for their license to guide....depending on their position (head guide, assistant etc.) And bent rod brought up many good points! remember last year when they said zero fishing for Chinook...well guess what the vast majority of people who showed up at the island 22 rally were? GUIDES! they are actually helping to protect the industry, which would make sense as that is their lively hood!

The only thing I agree with besides BR's post is....

"I do think they should start finding a way to better manage the amount of guides on the water, and also if it was a perfect world find a way to get the illegal guides off the water"

thats agreeable, there are lots of idiots out there that got a loan to get the big fancy jet and tackle, and they have maybe 1 or 2 yrs of experience under their belts....guess what their fav fishery is? FLOSSING! they do not know anything else....I like to call them make belief guides as they actually think they know what they r doing...its reely sad to see someone like BR who works hard to master the techniques of catching fish that BITE! having to compete with a flossing guide...the fake guides are the ones making all the good guides look stupid, and bad!

I have talked to guides who have said they had to convert to flossing as the clients demanded it.....its pretty tuff when ur bar fishing and the guide flossing below u just hooked 6 fish to your 1....I think "client pressure" has a lot to do with it aswell.....

A regulation change is in dire need....when will it come? who knows! :pissed:

but the fact that people are framing guides as a commercial fishery is kind of silly ::) end of post
 

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This is one of the best post ever. I do not agree 100% with Ambler - However the need for accountability in all phases and sectors of fishing is necessary and advisable.

The cross-over benefits of guided anglers is large and needs to be taken into account. The energy that guides put into this sport needs to be recognised and appreciated.

However all things need to be in balance to maintain the equilibrium and thus the future of fishing in B.C.

I look forward to may more opinions on this subject as it brings out some good ideas and great discussion.

Oakey
 

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Mike D, you were mis-reading my post. I was speaking in regards to a fishing licence. And saying that the fisherman themselves not the guide are responsible for their own, and along with it get their own personal quota.

Ambler, In some cases on waters were they have decided to limit guides catch rate they can limit the number of guidable days on that water. I think this would cover your line of thinking as to limiting guides impact on a system/area. Perhaps this would could be used more if it is decided that they are having that big of an impact.

From my observations out in the valley, as far as impact on numbers guides are the least of any runs worries. And like BentRod has mentioned the good that the majority of them do far out weighs the negative. It only takes an hour at any foot accessible bar during a salmon openings up here to tell that the problem is alot bigger than a few hard working guides.
 

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Good post BR

there are many issues threatening the fraser river fishery but guides are not one of them.

It is unfortunate thay many of the sportfishing comunity are completely ignorant of the true nature of many of the fraser valley guides. There are more hard working,honest and extremely conservation minded guides in the fraser valley than any region in B.C.
a prime example of this would be the sturgeon conservation and tagging program in the fraser valley this is done exclusivly by the guides!
this data collected by guides has kept the sturgeon off of the Species At Risk Act(SARA) List for at least the next 5 years so that every one can continue sturgeon fishing!

Or the fact that Guides are furiously writing letters to their MLA, MP, Ministers and anyone who will listen about the development of a sturgeon stamp(All guides oppose this one)

or the steelhead broodstock on the allouette and chehalis-mainly guides once again contributing!
or the cultus lake pike minnow derby to help the sockeye in that system-once again guides contributing to a good cause

We can also see guides contributing in other areas such as the sport fishing advisory board which fights for the continuation of fishing in the fraser valley- once again mainly guides fighting to keep a fishery open to the public not just for guides or their client but for everyone !

The fraser valley is the most challenging fishery in B.C with a multitude unique, gear specific fisheries
and any guide able to afford and survive in this area should be commended instead of condemned.
It is challenging enough to have to deal with DFO and its extreme short comings on the mismanagement of the fraser. The sportfishing community should become allies of the guides and not try to regulate them any more.

Perhaps the general public needs to become more involved with the fishery and educate themselves as to how much guides voluntarily do for the sportfishing community, and how much they keep fighting to keep us all on the river!

Kind regards
Oliver Rutschmann
Swiftwater Guiding
 

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I guide on the Fraser and nobody else but another guide can really appreciate what guides do and go through to maintain a company.Every one thinks guides make so much money but thats bs.Try to make money in a seasonal,government regulated industry which is always on the brink of closure and stock collapse!!Not to mention gas,insurance,licence fees and a boat plus gear!!!Gimmee a break,If you close guided fishing,the trickle down effect from hotels to bait they buy will suffer.We are talking millions of dollars!
 

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"I think any angler who feels they are not allies with fishing guides in this province are not at all in touch with what guides do for the resource and the service they provide. A more dissected voice is not what sportfisherman need at this time, quite the opposite actually"

Allies with fishing guides? not in touch with what guides do for the resource? dissected voice,hmmmmm. Last time I checked you were not a member of the Fraser Valley Angling Guide Association and I don't recall seeing you in any one of the 100 or so meetings I have attended on behalf of guides and recreational anglers. Maybe it's time to put your money where your mouth is and join.
 

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RA40 said:
"I think any angler who feels they are not allies with fishing guides in this province are not at all in touch with what guides do for the resource and the service they provide. A more dissected voice is not what sportfisherman need at this time, quite the opposite actually"

Allies with fishing guides? not in touch with what guides do for the resource? dissected voice,hmmmmm. Last time I checked you were not a member of the Fraser Valley Angling Guide Association and I don't recall seeing you in any one of the 100 or so meetings I have attended on behalf of guides and recreational anglers. Maybe it's time to put your money where your mouth is and join.
Pwned.
 

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Are you suggesting that my decision to not join the angling guides association is somehow related to what I do for the resource?.

Theres lots of guides who don't belong and do much for the fisheries they are involved in.

Coming on line with shots like that will get you lots of new members for the association :wallbash:.

This is to that post.................

 

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It was kinda harsh and I appologize for that but i find it ironic that you talk about people who are not in touch with what guides do for the fishery and resouce and your not a member of the largest and only guide association in the Fraser Valley that represents yours and all guides interests. I guess it frustrates me when I see guides like you who benifit from all the hard work we do yet you contribute 0.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Let me make it clear that I am not anti-guiding. I started this thread because it appears to me that guiding is both qualitatively and quantitatively different from recreational fishing, and appears to be somewhat similar to commercial fishing. But I think guides do contribute a lot to conservation in BC. Of course guides and recreational anglers should be allies, as should all others who have a stake in fish stocks.

Some of the arguments and points raised have been very informative for me. I don't have any first-hand experience with fishing in the Lower Mainland, but I know that things are very different there from here on the Island. I do know the value of making one's income from fishing, and all the skill, knowledge, and hard work that this involves. Honestly, I want to see more people able to make their livelihoods fishing, fbut that is not sustainable under current regulations. I don't think that changing the way guiding is regulated necessarily threatens the future of guiding in BC. Just like guides can have a positive impact on conservation, rethinking how guiding fits into the broader fishing community could benefit guiding.

As for the dispute that is developing between guides here, while it is important for you guys to work this one out in order to cooperate in the future, don't hijack this tread please.
 

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Well put ambler! Thanks for brining up the hard topics. Guided recreational fishing is very different from non-guided, there are lots of places on the north coast where a guy with no skill, no boat and no fishing rods can come home with hundreds of pounds of salmon and halibut. He just needs big bucks. That is not normal recreational fishing nor is it true commercial fishing. Guided fishing is an entity of it's own and should be regulated as such.
 
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