[GOFISH]

I quess two to three hundred noisie,fighting ,drunk, litterbugs are more visible than a couple of nets drifting through a school of sockeye... They sure take up way more of DFO's time..

Exactly, Rib and I have made this point in a different posting under a different heading. People have to realize that DFO has limited resources, the most important being time and people (Man Hours). By not assisting DFO with their request to fish as they have asked the same people doing 90% of the complaining about other groups being the "culprits at hand" are only assisting them in that matter.

I just wish people would understand that if DFO has to go around and babysit a bunch of bottom bouncers, (because they believe that they have no effect within the sphere of influence on Sockeye runs), it leaves them less time to concentrate on what most of us want them to deal with and that is manage the resource more effectively.


GOFISH 8)

 

[finaddict]

This topic was split from another topic, please feel free to continue it here...

rib

I quess two to three hundred noisie,fighting ,drunk, litterbugs are more visible than a couple of nets drifting through a school of sockeye... They sure take up way more of DFO's time..

Exactly, Rib and I have made this point in a different posting under a different heading. People have to realize that DFO has limited resources, the most important being time and people (Man Hours). By not assisting DFO with their request to fish as they have asked the same people doing 90% of the complaining about other groups being the "culprits at hand" are only assisting them in that matter.

Disagree. The problem is not in the available resources. It is how they are allocated to the best return for the use of those resources. What is the sense of chasing after a hugely spread out group whose effect on Early stuarts is minimal versus concentrating those same resources on the wdiespread illegal use of highly effective gill nets in both set and drifted methods? No sense whatsoever. The only reason DFO targets the sporties is that they have already decided that they cannot not do anything about the nets. That is not a local decision. It is made at the highest levels of the bureaucracy in Ottawa.

Remove one drifted gill net from one drift one time and you will have the same effect in increasing in Early Stuart escapement as a week of patrolling the sporties from top to bottom. So I ask you, with limited resources, what is the best use of those resources? ???

I just wish people would understand that if DFO has to go around and babysit a bunch of bottom bouncers, (because they believe that they have no effect within the sphere of influence on Sockeye runs), it leaves them less time to concentrate on what most of us want them to deal with and that is manage the resource more effectively.

Dsiagree. DFO needs to do a better job of managing the reources they are allocated, and place priority where it will have the most effect on the resource, not where it will affect the most people :wallbash: Start managing your resource in a more business like manner (Fraser Sockeye ARE big Business) and get the best return for your dollars spent and you will do a better job of managing the resource. continue to pussy foot around the issues and focus limited resources on areas of limited return and you have the great mismanagement that we have suffered through for decades.

Please note, I direct this accusation of mismanagement to the 50% of all DFO's employees and bureaucrats who reside in Ottawa and decide the future of our (read MY) resource from afar. I have the utmost respect for all local DFO personnel I have met and worked with. I place this blame squarely on the shoulders of senior DFO management in Ottawa who 'manage' the resource from afar with a priority on their own well-being, not on what is best for the resource

 

[GOFISH]

More DFO debate

What is the sense of chasing after a hugely spread out group whose effect on Early stuarts is minimal versus concentrating those same resources on the wdiespread illegal use of highly effective gill nets in both set and drifted methods? No sense whatsoever. The only reason DFO targets the sporties is that they have already decided that they cannot not do anything about the nets. That is not a local decision. It is made at the highest levels of the bureaucracy in Ottawa.

So when you state that DFO should be "concentrating those same resources on the widespread illeagal use of highly effective gill nete in both set and drifted methods" .......... just what is being done illegally? Are they not allowed their food fishery? Right now DFO are trying to deal with both issues at the same time. Maybe if they didn't have to also contend with the persistent bottom bouncing issue they could do a better job on the other issues ............ or should they just leave you and the others like you alone (who let me add are violating their request), and just concentrate on just "the other guys"??? :wallbash: :wallbash:

Start managing your resource in a more business like manner (Fraser Sockeye ARE big Business) and get the best return for your dollars spent and you will do a better job of managing the resource. continue to pussy foot around the issues and focus limited resources on areas of limited return and you have the great mismanagement that we have suffered through for decades.

Again, I see you point ........ they should focus on the big abusers and just let the little fish alone. Let me remind you 180 degrees from wrong is still wrong. In one breath you want ALL CANADIANS (including FN) to be treated equally ......... then in another you want DFO to concentrate their efforts on FN Fishery violations ......... and IGNORE YOURS.

Talk about having ones cake and eating it too.


GOFISH 8)

 

[abbyfireguy]

More DFO debate

I tend to agree with finaddict for the most part..Local DFO does know exactly where the most Sockeye are being lost to illegal harvest ...
I am left confused quite often, when a few hours of watching and one quick intervention will save hundreds or thousands of salmon,but days and weeks are spent saving a fraction of those numbers....
If I managed my work priorities like that I'd be fishing for a living instead of mostly for fun.....
I don't know if its just me but doesn't that rub you the wrong way...
Considering we are paying the DFO salaries, I think we have every right to suggest a wiser deployment of already short manpower(upper managments call)....Its called getting more bang for your buck..........
But then , sporties don't play the race card at the first sign of DFO swooping in for a rare apprehension.......
Sorry for the comments, I just call them as I see them........
I care little about all the political correctness garbage , I just want salmon to be around for my kids and grandkids..Spend the money saving the bigger group of illegally harvested fish which would be a greater impact on end numbers for survival...Don't care who is overharvesting,red,yellow,black or white,,,time to stop the destruction,period,end of story.

 

[finaddict]

More DFO debate

I started this reply with a lot of venomous re-torts that would not contribute to intelligent debate, but pulled most of them for the sake of the debate. I'll do my best to stick to the comments and rebute them logically and sensibly.

So when you state that DFO should be "concentrating those same resources on the widespread illeagal use of highly effective gill nete in both set and drifted methods" .......... just what is being done illegally?

they continue to net when the river is closed to this method of fishing. What part of illegal is confusing?

Are they not allowed their food fishery?

yes when the river is opened to them, and that is during certain hours and certain days and using certain methods. Not the every day, every hour and particularly at night harvest of early Stuarts that has taken place for the past 4 weeks

Right now DFO are trying to deal with both issues at the same time. Maybe if they didn't have to also contend with the persistent bottom bouncing issue they could do a better job on the other issues ............ or should they just leave you and the others like you alone (who let me add are violating their request), and just concentrate on just "the other guys"??? :wallbash: :wallbash:

what exactly do you see them doing about 'persistent bottom bouncing' that they are doing differently than they have done every year? two press releases and two tours of two different bars? not really a big sap of resources, GF.Your claim that they are spending all their resources trying control bottom bouncing is fanciful spin casting at least.

Again, I see you point ........ they should focus on the big abusers and just let the little fish alone. Let me remind you 180 degrees from wrong is still wrong. In one breath you want ALL CANADIANS (including FN) to be treated equally ......... then in another you want DFO to concentrate their efforts on FN Fishery violations ......... and IGNORE YOURS.

Nice try GF. here i get a little testy. Please do not try to paraphrase me, you're not very good at it. I have no problem with you taking issue with my position, but your attempt to place words and context in my post, where they are not, is rather insulting. I have never used the words "ALL CANADIANS" , nor have I said equality for same or included FN's in the same group. I am much more up to date on the issues and the court decisions than that. Save your rhetoric on that issue for those who are unable to debate, and stick to the topic at hand. We were talking about the logical use of the resources. You want to waste them chasing a few accidentally hooked sockeye by the bottom bouncers, I want to use the resources to stop the illegal out of season harvest of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Early Stuarts. Which one will have the greatest effect on the early Stuarts that are able to reach the spawning channels?

 

[Rib]

Re: More DFO debate

I haven't read this stuff yet. Keep within the guidelines of the site, and the warnings I issued in the other thread, they apply here also.

rib

 

[chronic1]

Please note, I direct this accusation of mismanagement to the 50% of all DFO's employees and bureaucrats who reside in Ottawa and decide the future of our (read MY) resource from afar. I have the utmost respect for all local DFO personnel I have met and worked with. I place this blame squarely on the shoulders of senior DFO management in Ottawa who 'manage' the resource from afar with a priority on their own well-being, not on what is best for the resource

I think that in the last sentence of this quote is found the party with which you have your quarrel, finaddict. And for much of what you have to say, you would have an ally in me. I recognize that this is not a major concern to those back east, and I think it would be hard to make the argument that the resource has been well-managed. As a former employee you have insight that others of us don't, and you are obviously passionate and well informed. What I would like to hear is suggestions on how to affect the changes you envision. Where do you go after you've convinced us your right. It's one thing to point out a problem, it's quite another to figure out how to make it go away. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing you. I just think that time is short and we are in desperate need of much action!! To the best of my knowledge, no members of this forum hold senior positions at DFO, so any influence we as a whole could have would have to go another route. :cheers:

 

[Bent Rod]

More FN bashing and assumptions by an individual trying to justify their own behaviour.

This whole idea that FN are illegally fishing 24 hours a day is pure hogwash.
You may convince those who aren't actually out there of this FA, but for those that are, this is your own brand of spin doctoring.

I couldn't care less whether you worked for DFO or were a Cheam member, your stereotyping and BS regarding the level of illegal fishing is clealy a smokescreen to hide behind in your quest to justify your own actions.

Keep up the rhetoric, as behind the scenes and in meetings, this technique we formerely knew as FLOSSING and all agree is SNAGGING, is going to be regulated out of sportfishing.

Then those of us who always have and always will, are going to attempt to put pressure on DFO to better manage the FN and commercial fisheries.

Been fun reading the fancy words and imaginary situations, very politician like.

 

[Guest]

Finadict, When you say FN your painting them all with the same lable....

Not all FN net fish to sell or do what ever they do to the fish .. I know of one FN Band that is part of my family and they only net enough fish to support there family then they stop netting....

When you Bash FN for Netting please be specific on what Band your reffering to instead of pointing your finger at all of them

eace:

 

[GOFISH]

This whole idea that FN are illegally fishing 24 hours a day is pure hogwash.
You may convince those who aren't actually out there of this FA, but for those that are, this is your own brand of spin doctoring.

I couldn't care less whether you worked for DFO or were a Cheam member, your stereotyping and BS regarding the level of illegal fishing is clealy a smokescreen to hide behind in your quest to justify your own actions.

Thanks Bent Rod ......... I couldn't have said it better myself.

what exactly do you see them doing about 'persistent bottom bouncing' that they are doing differently than they have done every year? two press releases and two tours of two different bars? not really a big sap of resources, GF.Your claim that they are spending all their resources trying control bottom bouncing is fanciful spin casting at least.

I believe that there has been more time used regarding the bottom bouncing (aka. Flossing; aka. Snagging) than just "two press releases and tours of two bars". Since I've been out on the river I've seen it with my own eyes ........... but you are right in that only two have been reported within this site.

Now since you called me on the "ALL CANADIAN" comment .... where in my post have I stated that "they are spending all their resources trying control bottom bouncing"??? Pssssst ....... you are also bad at paraphrasing someone. I didn't state "all their resources" ...... but it certainly is taking up some, perhaps valuable time.

Point of the matter is how can you condemn someone elses actions when you yourself are violating the requests of DFO. And yes since we are talking about the "logical use of resources" ...... then pray tell me ........ why are you wasting their time using up that resource??? It's not the amount that is important here ........... it's the reasoning. Are you really that starved for fish that you have to floss one???

Okay, I take back the "ALL CANADIANS" comment then. I just realized that the only thing you want, or more precisely, don't want is to fish within the parameters that DFO has requested. I noticed in your reply that you didn't include any content or support about you use of Non-Selective fishing practices when DFO is requesting you use Selective fishing practices that "DON'T CATCH SOCKEYE". And please provide me where that allows C & R.

And by the way your statement that C & R does not have an effect on whether that Sockeye can successfully make it to spawn ..... is pure garbage. I believe you know better than that. If not, please don't insult everyones intelligence on here.


GOFISH 8)

 

[bigjay]

Badly.

 

[synapsez]

I feel it is wrong and in bad taste to assume that anyone critical of DFO's management or drift netting practices (many which DO occur illegally) is simply trying to justify his own behavior.

When I see someone fishing with a 10 or 20 foot long leader it is extremely upsetting to me. I have fished since I was six years old. Many of the places I've fished were in remote lakes and streams where I had to practically crawl on hands and knees to get within casting distance without disturbing what might be waiting.

Drift nets can be extremely damanging to a fishery and I KNOW many are used during the night-time. I also know that for at least some FN it is a profit fishery - perhaps indirectly a "food" fishery.

Bent Rod - please don't come back and say I'm trying to justify my own bad behaviour. If we really want to restore and preserve one of the World's best fisheries, I realize it lies with ALL of us. But putting the microscope on a sport fishery that allows the retention of two (in the case of sockeye) fish per day - regardless of how they are caught - instead of watching where perhaps 90 percent or more of the fish are harvested - is indeed a poor utilization of resources.

Again, I'n not condoning anything at all about the meat-harvest flossing frenzie that takes place in the line-ups. I would rather be on my belly stalking brookies at a remote mountain stream.

 

[geolog]

Re: Fraser 07/27/2007

Nothing like the use of exaggeration to get point accross

"I quess two to three hundred noisie,fighting ,drunk, litterbugs are more visible than a couple of nets drifting through a school of sockeye... They sure take up way more of DFO's time.."

One point. a single net drift through a school of sockeye catches more sockeye than your so called bunch of 200-300 drunken fisherman!!!

I just like the way things get twisted DFO didnt say to stop bottom bouncing only to use selective leader length and avoid sockeye. my observations after many hours is only a very few sockeye are hooked and all were released in water. So why is this continually being blown up out of proportion relative to the amount of fish actually affected. i can only surmize that its special interest groups once again trying to ram their one sided ideas down the majorities throats with their wild exaggerations, predictions of doom and gloom and the end of the world.

Concentrate on the real problems that have major effects on the fish and leave the average joe to catch his fish for his family!!!

 

[steely_crazy]

IMHO,,,,

We can continuing arguing about whos the worst offenders why we think that and how we'd like to see it and how badly the DFO does its job and on and on. However, I think it still comes down to the old philosophy that you ensure your own standards are the highest and your own house is in order and that you first fix what you do have control over. Then try to influence those things you have no control over via legitimate channels - whether that be on your own or within a group.

The only thing each and every one of us has control over is our own actions, so we need to start there. Stop flossing, tell others to do the same, stop harvesting, practice C&R, etc. etc..

 

[troutchaser]

That's exactly right Steely Crazy.... I couldn't agree more. End of story. Please no more stinking bottom bouncing threads or bottom bouncing related hijackings. DFO simply asked people not to for the sake of protecting an endangered species. If you don't want to abide by that, then all the power to you. But why people feel the need to share their "success" stories, or "ethics" debates on this isssue on a public forum I will never know. It's past tiresome.

 

[tuberdude]

Im pretty sure everyone here has been witnessing the lower number of fish returning every year. Whether its due to Commercial fishing pressure, First Nations fishing pressure, or Sport Fishing pressure. Are we gonna keep going the same ways, pointing fingers at who is responsible, and not take any action? Give the First Nation a type of food subsidy so they can do away with the nets for a few years to increase the return numbers. I know the OK indians get a clothing allowance, school allowance, and various other "allowances", so a food allowance or subsidy for those who are the ones using the nets dosent seem like a bad idea to me. Commercial fisherman, sorry, but just like the fishing industry on the west coast its gonna go belly up. Unfortunatley you rely on a natural resource and if the stocks arent managed properly, just like the forestry industry, which also is a natural resource, eventually it will die out. As for us "sporties" , impose stiff, STIFF, penalties for those who wish to floss, snag, BB, use barbed hooks, long leaders, or bonk wild or closed runs of fish. How hard would it be for everyone to practice C&R for a few years to ensure the numbers increase enough to ensure your kids kids will have something to fish for in the future. Everyone here must realize that its not getting better, just worse and eventually something will happen, whether its this year, next year, or the year after, just hopefully its not to late by the time it rolls around. Just isnt it better to start too soon than too late. I guess you could call it preventative maintnance, you know try to fix it before its written off. Lots of you probably wont and dont agree with me but thats my opinion, my :2cents:

 

[finaddict]

OK , Lots to type here. I will respond to the next four posts and then I am done. My typing fingers are getting blisters

More FN bashing and assumptions by an individual trying to justify their own behaviour

incorrect bent. My criticisms of the illegal fishing being done is completely separate from my actions on the river. I am not the one fishing illegally.

This whole idea that FN are illegally fishing 24 hours a day is pure hogwash.
You may convince those who aren't actually out there of this FA, but for those that are, this is your own brand of spin doctoring.

Actually I said that they are fishing on all days, and at all hours of the day, but I can see where that would read 24 hours a day. Rather than use vague language, I'll stick to the facts. There are certain individuals who are presently gill net fishing outside of the open times. This has been happening quite regularly for the past month. Last time I checked this was against the law. Upholding the LAW is one of the prime priorities of DFO.

I couldn't care less whether you worked for DFO or were a Cheam member, your stereotyping and BS regarding the level of illegal fishing is clealy a smokescreen to hide behind in your quest to justify your own actions.

incorrect again bent. Actually I rarely fish the Fraser during sockeye season. I am usually in China during the openings. I don't have an axe to grind here Bent. Nor do I lobby for personal gain. I am more opposed to the will of the few imposed on the many, for their own personal gain. That might be a mirror that you should gaze into.

Keep up the rhetoric, as behind the scenes and in meetings, this technique we formerely knew as FLOSSING and all agree is SNAGGING, is going to be regulated out of sportfishing

See above regarding lobbying and personal gain

Then those of us who always have and always will, are going to attempt to put pressure on DFO to better manage the FN and commercial fisheries.

See above regarding lobbying and personal gain

Been fun reading the fancy words and imaginary situations, very politician like.

Now that is definitely the pot calling the kettle black. Except with a twist. I am not presently lobbying DFO for my own personal gain. I will gain and/or lose nothing with any changes made to the regulations. Other than my tax dollars, I have no vested interest in this fishery. What will you gain? How about this Bent? For the sake of conservation of the depleted sockeye stocks, Lets say we close the river completely. No fishing for anyone. I would support this. Would you?

 

[finaddict]

Finadict, When you say FN your painting them all with the same lable....

You're right FF. I apologize for the inference. I am pointing the finger at indivuduals who use their FN status to illegally fish. This is definitely not the majority of FN's I have met or worked with. Lets identify that it is a very vocal minority from a band in Abbottsford within the Sto'Lo nation that are committing the majority of the infractions.

Not all FN net fish to sell or do what ever they do to the fish .. I know of one FN Band that is part of my family and they only net enough fish to support there family then they stop netting....

And this is the same for the majority of bands particularly those above Hope.

When you Bash FN for Netting please be specific on what Band your reffering to instead of pointing your finger at all of them

point taken and confirmed in above.

 

[finaddict]

This will be my last post on this topic and then those who oppose me can flame me all they want without re-course. While I love being the antagonist in a debate, my typing fingers are simply wearing out.

I think that in the last sentence of this quote is found the party with which you have your quarrel, finaddict. And for much of what you have to say, you would have an ally in me. I recognize that this is not a major concern to those back east, and I think it would be hard to make the argument that the resource has been well-managed. As a former employee you have insight that others of us don't, and you are obviously passionate and well informed. What I would like to hear is suggestions on how to affect the changes you envision. Where do you go after you've convinced us your right. It's one thing to point out a problem, it's quite another to figure out how to make it go away. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing you. I just think that time is short and we are in desperate need of much action!! To the best of my knowledge, no members of this forum hold senior positions at DFO, so any influence we as a whole could have would have to go another route. :cheers:

granted its easy to criticize and much tougher to provide solutions. I do not want to be percieved as simply a whining complainer, so I'll put my money where my mouth is....

Here is my multi-point radical solution to the existing problems regarding fraser river summer fisheries;

• 1.Substantially increase the escapement requirements for all runs of sockeye and chinook on the Fraser and its tributaries. It is very clear that the escapement ratios presently applied are hit and miss. Its time to be clearly CONSERVATIVE with our escapement allocations
  
• 2. Eliminate all harvest of sockeye in marine locales. The highly inefficient commercial seine and gill net fisheries is a net drain to our economy. Chasing the sockeye all over hell's half acre when we know exactly where they will return to is illogical. Total dollars generated by all commercial sockeye seine and gill net fisheries and contribution to the GDP does not equal total payments and budgets of all governments associated with those fisheries. There is no doubt that this will create havoc amongst the commercial fisheries. Develop an economic recovery plan that compensates for this. Re-assign what ever allocation is available for commercial fisheries to estuarine fish wheels and fences that selectively harvest only those runs that are healthy. Divide this harvest up based on present licenses and pay the commercials for what they presently are alocated. This will not be an easy task and I do not have all the answers here.
  
• 3. Allocate an appropriate FSC fishery to the FN's that is realistic to their needs for these assigned purposes. Make random inspection on or off FN property a pre-requisite of this harvest. Refusal of inspection will result in forfeiture of this allocation.
  
• 4. Stop ALL fishing during periods of conservation concern for certain runs. No gill nets, no bottom bouncing, No barfishing, nothing. This way there is no opportunity for any user group to point fingers at any other user group and subsequently justify their own fishing based on the fact that the other group is fishing
  
• 5. Give a commercial allocation to the FN bands that have traditional fishing rights recognized by the courts for the Fraser and allow them to market the product in the same manner as all other commercial fisheries rather than from the bed of a truck
  
• 6. promote the hell out of sport fishing (including bottom bouncing) for sockeye during open seasons. Tourist dollars generated are ALWAYS a net gain to the economy and as salmon stocks throughout the continental US dwindle, effective conservation of fraser stocks will bring in the American tourists who thirst for salmon. This will allow for more fish caught at the highest possible dollar per fish. A flossed sockeye dies just the same as a gill netted or seined fish. In fact it is likely more humane. Might as well attempt to get maximum value from that fish. No one can argue that this is not best achieved from the sport fishing community
  
• 7.Promote the development of guiding and sportfishing lodging and companies all along the Fraser from Mission to Boston Bar and beyond. Set up government programs to help develop these enterprises for both FN bands and other interested parties. Spread the wealth of the sockeye up and down the lower fraser to economically depressed areas and assist in the development of same.
  
• 8. Substantially increase the cost of sport fishing and guiding licenses. Develop a training program that is a pre-requisite to gaining a fishing license. Make sure that people are educated enough to know how to identify species, know the regulations and understand the implications of contravening the laws. The exception to this would be the introduction of a day use "guided" license for those who choose to pay for the use of a guide. Use additional tax dollars generated from all types of licenses to adequately enforce the laws.
  
• 9. Allocate a maximum harvest to each sport fisher. (I think 20 is appropriate). Add a tag requirement for each sockeye harvested with an opportunity to add more if they wish to pay extra for extra fish.
  
• 10. Substantially increase the penalties for poaching for all user groups. Make the offenses felony charges rather than misdemeanors. First offence results in heavy fines, siezure of all equipment and forfeit of fishing licenses for one year. Second offence results in lifetime suspension, substanntially greater fines and/ or jail time.
  

Well there you have it. My radical 10 point solution to the constant problems that have plagued the Fraser confrontation every year. It is likely not going to make anyone happy and will probably p*ss off everyone. If that is the case then I know it will have accomplished the comprimise necessary to give every user group a little piece of the pie, while vastly improving the economic value of the fishery and most importantly improving the sustainability of the resource.

 

[AngleRachel]

Finaddict,

Awesome ideas...rather that just simply pointing finger and trying to eliminate the oppurtunity on non concerned fisheries to anyony who choose to participate. Thanks for sharing.