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Do you think that hatchery fish are there soley to bonk?


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I see noone wants to start here, so i will ad a little bit of what I observed from my own experiance.

Over the few short years that I have been angeling here I've seen and heard some things,that really dont match what the books say.
First of al I have seen in multiple occations late into the spawning season when you can see stealhead in pairs on their spawning grounds getting ready to spawn or spawning,where the pairs would be, a wild and a hatchery fish.
I don'tknow how many of you wittnesed such thing,but I saw multiple cases and i'm totally positive in two cases couse i saw these in cristal clear water and from a very small distance where you could clearly tell if the fish had a adipose or not??????

That would be one of my reasons why i never kill stealhead.
But saying this does not mean that everone who reads this should do the same thing,I also have nothing against people who ocationally kill a fish for table fair in reasnoble situations,meaning, doing this on a river or creek that can handle this kind of aproach.

I just found out recantlly that some local hatcheries on years with very bad returns use hatchery fish for broodstock,I don't know what to say about that,but from my point of view who can say that a fish with a adipose fin is really a wild fish anymore,couse it just might been the son or the doughter of the fish i saw spawning with the hatchery fish a while back and the genetics are not so really wild anymore????????????

Like i said this above waht I said is based on my own obesrvations,I have no real studies or facts to proove this but it just seems to me that its common sense.

If any body thinks different correct me,or add something that might change my opinion i would like to learn more always!!!!!!!
 

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I too have seen wild fish paired with hatchery fish....
I really don't think hatchery spawning with wilds matter.
All of these fish made it to the ocean, they all overcame the same thing, I don't think either of them are weaker than the other.

When they are released from the hatchery as larger smolts, they have the upper hand.
Less predadation, but there still is some.
I would say that hatchery fish could indeed help out a wild run of fish.

I won't be voting because I occasionally (rarley) bonk a Steelhead, but I never feel bad ;)
 

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Every Day said:
I don't think either of them are weaker than the other.
This statement could spawn off MANY other threads....

As far as whether hatchery fish are there for the taking, I think that is an answer that you would need to answer by your own beliefs. Obviously they are there for the taking, legally speaking. Then there are the systems that are on the brink of being depleted. So, if the runs are almost gone, do you feel ok in bonking that hatch? For example, a hatch fish in the Chehalis, I think that I wold have a hard time bonking it, knowing that the runs up there are already so minimal. I would rather see the runs rebuilt.

Then there are those that argue, if the runs are already on the outs, is it really healthy to be rebuilding with hatchery runs? Some feel that this is contaminating to the wild runs. I don't think that the answer is cut and dry.

As far as the statement to which I quoted above....

Imagine a child, growing up with no interaction, no mental challenges as an infant to the point of a toddler. Essentially being stuck in a crib, no toys, no books to view images to create brain function or development. Now take a child, growing up with the parent continually interacting with their child, reading to them early on, giving them puzzles, toys, books, things to get their brains working and creating mental challenges. Which child do you think would mature stronger mentally? Which child could adapt easier to challenges thrown their way?

I think that the same holds true with fish raised in a concrete pit as opposed to fish spawned in the wild. I may be off base, this is merely how I view it, but I am have been wrong before, and I am certain I will be wrong again.

:2cents:
 

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Hatchery vs wild, wild vs hatchery? What is truly wild? Very few runs that are left are truly wild and the hatcheries have put marked fish( clipped) in the system for the anglers to retain. So yes it would be considered "put and take" and it is simply upto you to decide if you are going to bonk that fish.

When you see that wild and hatchery paired up it is most likely to fish that have come from a hatchery as they do not clip every fish that they release.

As far as thrashers comment on the kids. The one with the interaction grows up to be a productive citizen to society and the other joins a gang and shots up the city.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
flyguy said:
Hatchery vs wild, wild vs hatchery? What is truly wild? Very few runs that are left are truly wild and the hatcheries have put marked fish( clipped) in the system for the anglers to retain. So yes it would be considered "put and take" and it is simply upto you to decide if you are going to bonk that fish.

When you see that wild and hatchery paired up it is most likely to fish that have come from a hatchery as they do not clip every fish that they release.

As far as thrashers comment on the kids. The one with the interaction grows up to be a productive citizen to society and the other joins a gang and shots up the city.
are you kidding me?
 

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OK I'll bite and throw my two cents in the ring. Yes hatchery fish are put and take. Bottom line.
BUT IMO hatchery fish beget wild fish. So why would I kill a hatch? Just my own fishing ethics folks
as I don't have a problem with guys killing a hatch for tablefare. I just dont do it personally.

As far as I am concerned we should be enhancing alot of our streams with Hatchery fish (Money aside)
This is something that is already being done on rivers down south. Successfully or not? It's still early
from what I have heard so far.

Interested in some other views here :)


BTW BRONJAUN thanks for the POLL I voted for the second choice. :happy:
 

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Firstly I have to say that the poll as it is laid out is biased beyond belief. By the wording bronjuan, you seem implying that anyone who chooses the first option must be a mouth-breathing, in-bred red-neck. The other three options seem to be aimed at those who you would have us believe are better, in varying degrees, than those m-b, i-b red-necks. My response was the first, not because I kill every fish I can, but because I find the arrogant, supercilious position evident in the pollster's bias repugnant. I have put quite a bit of thought into this over the past year or so, and I would like to share my thoughts on the subject.

I think that in our urban society, most people are completely divorced from the reality of the sacrifice countless animals pay so that we may feed on their flesh. Although I rarely kill fish, and I only kill that which I will eat that day, I feel that when I do harvest a fish, it reconnects me to the reality of the life I live and share on this planet. I truly believe that there is an honesty in confronting our dependence on other lives to sustain our own, and when done with respect, there is a decency in the sacrifice of a fish by my own hand, not that of some some faceless commercial interest, to feed me and mine. I do not hunt, but I have met far too many hunters who I feel approach hunting with the same ethic I apply to fishing, and so I accord them my respect as well. All that said, I also believe it is the responsibility of each of us to be aware of our impact on the systems we are interacting with. I wouldn't kill a fish if I felt the particular waters I was fishing would suffer from the loss of that fish. That is again an ethical choice I would, and do, face whenever I fish, hike, drive, etc. I don't ask for your approval. I have walked the earth long enough not to need it. :peace:
 

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flyguy said:
When you see that wild and hatchery paired up it is most likely to fish that have come from a hatchery as they do not clip every fish that they release.

WOOOOOOOW are you joking? Honestly.............

You really honestly think that a wild fish and a hatchery fish would not spawn together? They must be 2 hatchery fish and one of them just didn't get clipped. [*Insert laughter here*] I guess fish have dating programs set up like eHarmony to ensure that they don't mingle with the "wrong" crowd.

Hatchery fish are there to be killed if the angler decides too.

There are flows that I fish that I know are on the decline and I would release hatchery fish in hopes that it does spawn in the river and help reestablish the run. Is there a problem with a wild fish and a hatchery fish spawning together? I myself believe not. A hatchery fish is a wild fish that was raised in a pen, so yes maybe it is not a true "wild" fish ::). However its DNA is a wild strain and any young that it produces in the river in the wild, be it with a wild or hatchery fish, would still be part of the true wild stock. Essentially any young that a hatchery fish produces, or is a part of in the river away from the hatchery is the true wild run due to the setup and design of the brood stock program. The only real difference is that hatchery fish get help reaching the smolt stage before being released back into the wild.
 

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Professori,great post,I couldn't have said it any better.When i saw that " Honk if you Bonk" all I could do was laugh.I think this all started when Brougen got very angry at one of my posts on another thread about killing a hatchery fish for the table.Oviously there are some very passionate people on this site with very strong feelings,but please keep your emotions in check,I know its hard to do.
 

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I have a family who loves salmon(fresh) So any chance i get i bonk away! Nothing wrong with that! :thumbup:
Limit your catch dont catch your limit!
CK
 

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I wonder if anyone can list a river system where it is proven hatchery augmention has rebuilt a steelhead run? Has all the planting of steelhead rebuilt the Capilano? Seymour? Alloutte? Coquitlam? Stave? Chehalis? When they did it on the Ashlu? or Thompson? or upper Squamish? How about Englishman? Summer runs in the Campbell river? Hatchery fish did return back to those rivers and sometimes in decent numbers that provided a decent sport fishery ,but rebiuld the run? Hardly. Hatchery steelhead are used to create a sport fishery that allows anglers to bring home a fish if they so choose to do so. Releasing hatchery fish by anglers has so far proven to do nothing towards rebuilding a steelhead run just offering another angler a chance to hook that fish again.
The closest one could say a hatchery program has "rebuilt" a steelhead run would be the few wild summer runs that appear in the Chehalis but with the overall numbers so small I would hardly call it a success story at this time.
 

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Good point RNL ,I know it failed on the Englishmen as i fished that flow when they were trying to augment the run with a broodstook program,it got to the point where there was so few returning they had to give up catching broodstock becuase they could not even take one fish from the river.Heart breaking
 

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I love to fish & eat fish doesn't matter how many fish I am allowed I can only eat so much and I don't give any away I am a selective fisher and believe that fresh fish is the only way to appreciate a species stealhead are not the best eating in my opinion and therefore I only take 2-3 a year not more there are better eating fish that are more abundant and not as sensitive to harvest just my .02 cents
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Firstly,

Prof, I fully agree I worded that poorly. I was trying to be funny, but it may sway the person to vote otherwise. However, at the same time, if someone sees that first choice and realizes it's wrong, has it helped them make a realisation? Furthermore, it's completely anonymous. Some people are just proud/totally cool with bonking everything their "entitled" to. So I think it goes either way.

I hope from this that some may change their attitudes. When I read phrases like "they are there to be killed" I don't know what to think. I ask myself, "Did I miss this paragraph in the regs?"

People need to realise that these hatchery fish aren't 3n. They can and will produce offspring. If you let them live, you put less strain on hatchery programs, thus, the money can be spent else where ie habitat restoration.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Dennis.t said:
Good point RNL ,I know it failed on the Englishmen as i fished that flow when they were trying to augment the run with a broodstook program,it got to the point where there was so few returning they had to give up catching broodstock becuase they could not even take one fish from the river.Heart breaking
Hey dennis, ya I didn't mean to sound so pissed. I just really hate that ("hatchery are put there to kill") phrase! It strikes a "wasteful"chord with me. It also has the essence of carelessness.

To answer the question "has hatchery ever restored a run?" Well maybe it hasn't but there are other factors. I alluded to the allocation of funds in an earlier post. Perhaps tighter regulation of these streams would have helped. You always hear officials saying "I hated to close it down" when referring to a closure, such as the Thompson this past fall. Perhaps such measures should be used more liberally?

By no means am I placing full blame on sport fisherman for the declining stocks. There are greater factors to address. I wouldn't be surprised that what's going on out at sea is the primary problem. It's just that if we bonked less fish on our rivers, perhaps we'd be giving the species a helping hand while still enjoying the sport that we love.
:beerchug:
 

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I don't bonk, but imo the right answer is "Yes, get'cha bonk on!".
It's legal, the hatcheries specifically target aggressive "read dumb" fish for brood stock, and I believe that the too many hatchery fish will weaken the gene pool.
That being said it's not the end of the world for a hatchery fish to spawn. It went through a lot of the same trials as wild fish so has proven itself strong and lucky. Not all brood from the same breeding pair will have identical genetics.
 

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bronjuan said:
By no means am I placing full blame on sport fisherman for the declining stocks. There are greater factors to address. I wouldn't be surprised that what's going on out at sea is the primary problem. It's just that if we bonked less fish on our rivers, perhaps we'd be giving the species a helping hand while still enjoying the sport that we love.
:beerchug:
it's been catch and release on Van Isle for wild steelhead since 1978, what's really changed?
It's been catch and release on the Vedder since 1978, how great have the wild stocks rebuilt?
The rest of region 2 has been cnr since 1982. Pretty much been 7 complete life cycles, what's changed again? nothing except there there is way less than back when you could keep them. A few guys bonking their legally allowed 10 hatchery fish limit out of the few hatchery rivers will mean nothing in the big picture.
What to really recover steelhead stocks? stop all human encroachment on all of our streams and waters. Including the ocean.
Not too sure how old you are bronjuan ,but maybe after all the years I fished and watched all the changes , it's hard to keep a "glass half full" feeling when it comes to region 2 and 3 steelhead. With all the population growth, habitat destruction , lack of goverment will and money , there really is no hope and we are slowly dieing a death of a thousand cuts. Just wait until you have 40 years of watching it all slide downhill, you may feel the same.
 

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bronjuan said:
People need to realise that these hatchery fish aren't 3n. They can and will produce offspring. If you let them live, you put less strain on hatchery programs, thus, the money can be spent else where ie habitat restoration.
the reason why this may not be a good thing is the "fitness" level of hatchery steelhead is not up to that of wild steelhead and you will actually have a shrinking run size if hatchery fish spawn with wild fish according to studies that have been done. This was one of the big issues when deciding wether or not to try hacthery work on the Cheakamus after the CN derailment. Wish it was just as simple as plant a bunch of smolts and lots will come back, but with steelhead it just does not work that way at times.
 

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bronjuan said:
Firstly,

When I read phrases like "they are there to be killed" I don't know what to think. I ask myself, "Did I miss this paragraph in the regs?"
You may not like the phrase, but the reality is that the hatchery program is in place for one of 2 purposes:
1) to augment angling opportunities by increasing the fish population.
and/or
2) to restore endangered stocks.

If, as is the case with Vedder steelhead, the primary goal is to augment opportunities, and if there is a retention opportunity in the regulations, then by extension, these fish are placed in the system and identified as augmented stocks (hatchery) with the clear understanding that they are available for harvest (read killing). You may not have read it in the regulations, but if you search around a bit for the mandate that hatcheries operate under, that implication is clearly there. Does it mean we have to take every fish we can? No. Does it mean that by taking every fish we can we are harming the viability of the run? Probably not. Hatcheries programs where retention is allowed, factor in angler retention in their programs, making allowance for the loss of stock due to harvest. I have no problem with anglers who practice total C&R, anymore than I do with those who ethically and legally harvest any fish they are entitled to. However, once I encounter the "C&R is the only way to fish" fanatics, those who abhor any and all who take a fish, I lose all patience. Of the hundreds of fish I catch yearly, I retain perhaps a dozen a year. Read my previous post for my reasons if you wish. Yes this discussion might cause some anglers to reduce their take. It might make some question their needs and motives. But "C&R is the only way, all the time"? I don't think so.
 
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